-
Tx for schizophrenia with supplements
Hi Bernadette and Daniel,
I’m having some technical issues with my new phone and cannot reply to the old messages.
Thank you so much for the additional info that you provided.
I’ve been reading up on the tx of this condition using supplements and have come across an entire regimen. I have a few questions regarding this below :
Book : Orthomolecular Treatment for Schizophrenia by A. Hoffer, M.D., PH.D.
The regimen-
• 3 grams vitamin c
• Inositol niacinate (hexaniacin inositol) ; 3 to 6 grams divided into three doses taken after meals ( im concerned about the Dr mentioning a rare occurance of jaundice or liver damage, he said other antioxidants like glutathione and others, I can’t find the names right now, could possibly work the same but need to be studied). Wondering if you know the details on Inositol niacinate and whether or not glutathione works the same. He also mentioned a ‘flush’ that happens with this supplement, so really wondering if theres another option like glutathione.
• 50 mg zinc
• 200 to 600 micrograms selenium
• Folic acid with b12
• vitamin b6 pyridoxine, he said to keep dose under the limit of 1000mg, not sure where to start.
Please provide any thoughts you have on the above.
He gives his reasonings for each and I will comment on this post when I can to provide this information.
My little one is teething so I’m quickly posting this with questions and running back.
I will also be reading the book written by Dr Walsh, Nutrient Power. In this book he discusses a similar concept and named it the Walsh Protocol
Thank you again Bernadette, Daniel and B Better team.
-
5 Replies
-
Hey @Annie Sye,
It’s hard to judge Hoffer’s train of thought. However, I can tell that I wouldn’t recommend trying out some of these dosages of supplements yourself.
Dosing supplements & why it is hard to recommend protocols
The upper tolerable limit for Selenium, for example, is 400 mcg. Above these dosages, people can experience symptoms. I can imagine that supplementing with higher dosages can be considered if someone is deficient in selenium. But you will need to know for sure if you’re considering these dosages.
The same story for vitamin B6: 1000 mg of vitamin B6 is not without risk. Even much lower dosages aren’t without risk. High dosages of vitamin B6 can cause irriversible nerve damage. Vitamin B6 is also necessary for neurotransmitter production. Since Schizophrenia is a disease in which neurotransmitter imbalances are often documented, high dosages of B6 can influence that balance. Especially because with Schizophrenia glutamate imbalances play often a role, adding vitamin B6 could worsen that imbalance.
Don’t get me wrong: I think vitamin B6 can be a good supplement, but start low and slow with the dosage and I see many potential benefits. Still, with my clients I would always recommend the low & slow approach (5mg daily for example). We know that people with glutamate imbalances can experience anxiety, irritability and restlessness when B6 supplements are used.
As a rule of thumb, in functional medicine we first like to know:
What possible systems in the body are out of balance? Do we have labs? What other symptoms are there?
Based on that we make recommendations on lifestyle, nutrition and supplements.
Let me give you an example: if someone can’t methylate well (which we see regurlary in Schizophrenia patients), nutrient deficiencies in vitamin B12, folate, B6 or B2 can play a role. If someone is deficient in B12 only, methylation could be impaired. Supplementing with B6 or folate won’t help.
This is where labs play a role: we first need to know what might be at play in this person to make recommendations.
Are there perhaps labs you could share with us? If so, we could help you by giving you more targeted advice.
-
@Annie Sye I echo Daniel’s sentiment about following a specific protocol with such high dosages. Also the forms of Bs they are recommending are not in a form that can be easily utilized by the body.
For example, folic acid and folate are VERY different. Folate is what we want. Vitamin B6 in the pyridoxine form and Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate (P5P) form are also very different. P5P is want we want when we don’t know someone’s ability to convert Pyridoxine to the active P5P form or folic acid into folate.
In general, I agree that a B complex is likely needed, but as Daniel mentioned, B’s need to be added in very slowly as it can ramp up methylation and detoxification processes in an individual. And unless we know exactly where he’s deficient through testing (which you mentioned he’s opposed to doing unless it’s the OAT in urine), I prefer to stick to a B complex like Thorne’s Basic B Complex for example. The OAT test does measure some vitamin markers like B12, B6, B2, B5, and Vitamin C. It doesn’t measure folate metabolites unfortunately. You can see a sample report HERE (scroll to p. 3 for the vitamin markers).
I know it may feel easier to follow a given protocol, but each person’s root cause can be so different even though they may have the same diagnosis. Therefore, the protocol should match their unique needs and not the label. This is the main difference between functional medicine and conventional medicine. We ask “why”, not “what”.
If you’re not sure where to start, I would focus on the foundational priorities. Is he constipated or does he have a well-formed bowel movement (type 3-4) at least once per day?
Sleep! How’s the l-theanine and melatonin going?
Blood sugar and mineral balance. You said you would create a post to discuss his diet. Let’s do that next, because it plays a major role.
Hydration. Does he drink enough water? From what source? Plastic bottles or tap or filtered?
Please let us know.
-
@Daniel Schepers Hi Daniel, sorry for the delayed response, I’ve been having technical issues with my phone and finally had it repaired.
Thank you for the information. There are a handful of local naturopathic doctors that specialize in the Walsh protocol. One would go to them and be given dosages as well as be closely monitored. I was curious on what exactly goes on in the protocol so I read up a bit on it. I also wanted to hear what you and Bernadette thought, thank you for the information.
He wasn’t too keen on the idea of going to a doctor or getting blood work/tests done of any kind. He’s slowly becoming more and more understanding and we hope he’ll agree to get some testing done soon. As soon as he does and we get the results, I’ll upload them here.
My mother also noticed he does not have any crescent/moon shaped white areas on the base of his finger nails. Is that normal? Not sure if that means anything, but thought I’d mention it.
-
@Bernadette Abraham Hi Bernadette, sorry for the delayed response. I was having some phone issues , thank you for the information.
He was very suspicious and basically completely against any kind of testing until a few days ago. He’s slowly warming up to the idea. Once he agrees to the tests I’ll upload all results here.
Yes I completely understand. There are some naturopathic doctors here that offer this protocol. I ordered some books written on this protocol to understand it better and find out exactly what goes on. Wanted to know your thoughts, thank you for explaining that.
I will need to get back to you about the type of bowel movements. He makes frequent visits to the bathroom, not sure if it’s to urinate or to void bowels. I will have my mother find out. But he’s having to run to the bathroom more often than the average person.
I’m not sure what kind of difference the l-theanine has made, he’s at 200mg. Overall he seems to be getting better, I’m sure it’s helping, but hard to say exactly how, just an overall improvement in symptoms. He seems to realize now that he’s sick, so that in itself is a huge plus.
The melatonin has really helped his sleep. Thank you so much for all of information you and Daniel have given about supplements. I think he will barely wake up through the night after falling asleep. It’s been very helpful to keep him asleep and give him a deeper sleep. He only sleeps 6 hours but at least it’s a deeper sleep. One thing however, regarding sleep, that my mother noticed, was that he snores a lot when he lays on his back, but when he’s on his side the snoring will stop, not sure if that’s important.
Since he’s gotten a bit better I can ask my mother for more information. It was hard getting information when this initially happened, it was very chaotic for some reason. As far as water, I believe they have an under sink filtration system. Not sure what kind. I’ll find out and report back soon.
Once I get a little more information I’ll post about his food/water and nutrition. I’ll ask my mother about this again tomorrow.
-
@Annie Sye glad to hear about the progress he’s made so far. I’m sure that him sleeping better is playing a big role in that – even though it’s with sleep aids for now.
If he’s snoring when he’s on his back, you may want to try adding a slight incline to his bed. Prop the head of the mattress up with bed risers or pillows/cushions as a temporary DIY solution. Do you know if he’s a mouth breather during the day as well?
You may also want to invest in an earthing mat for his bed BUT, I only recommend doing this once the bedroom has been assessed for EMF. The mat connects to a wall outlet that is grounded, and essentially grounds you while you sleep, so it’s also a natural anti-inflammatory. My husband and I have started using one recently and WOW – our sleep has become SO deep!! That’s just one of the many benefits. Grounding outdoors is obviously the best solution, but it’s not always feasible in our modern ways of living. I can’t recommend it enough: https://www.earthing.com/collections/sleep-kits
I’m also glad to hear that he’s in a better mental space and things at home seem to have calmed down a bit for you all. That’s a huge win!
I’ll be waiting to hear about the other basic foundational priorities (bowels, food, water, etc).
By the way, has he and your mom moved out of the moldy home that’s being renovated yet?
Log in to reply.
